AdrianMarx

Shipping and Homophobia

31 posts in this topic

Okay. Before I get into this, it's not aimed at anyone in particular on here. It's just a general thing I've been sitting on for years now but I actually spoke to a real live person face to face who was like this and I literally just need to get this shit off my chest.

Can we stop??? Saying "i'm sinning" when talking about shipping two people of the same gender together??? Because that equates gay sex/relationships with sin and implies that they're ~unnatural~ and ~wrong~ and that's just a really harmful lesson to teach young lgbt kids for obvious reasons.

If a gay person, or a bi person or pan person or anyone who could theoretically be in the relationship you're writing, tells you you're being homophobic/biphobic etc. how about instead of getting all defensive and saying "no but i support gay people!!!! look i'm writing boys kissing!!!!" you listen and try to understand what it is they're saying. if you don't understand, ask them to explain again. And when you understand? Apologise and don't do it again?????

Gay relationships, esp m/m relationships in fandom culture, are rly grossly fetishised (and obviously this becomes a little more difficult to distinguish on a fetish website but it's still a thing).

Like today I met an actual life human, a straight girl, who callled ME homophobic because i pointed out her own homophobia. like. that's not how homophobia works????

I'm not saying don't write gay/bi/pan characters. for the love of god of COURSE write them. but write about us respectfully and if we tell you you're doing it in an offensive way??? 

don't be a pissbaby about it

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Posted (edited)

I've also noticed a lot of M/M fetish stories on this forum being written by women. I remember a thread a while back admonishing men who write F/F, so I've always wondered how gay people actually felt about the opposite. It does seem to fit the definition of fetishizing, but then again, I'm straight and I don't read/write either, so it's not my place to say.

I'm curious though, do you consider it fetishizing only if a straight person writes either? Technically, if we're talking about a fetish story written mainly for sexual arousal, should people only write their own sexual preferences? Otherwise, wouldn't it be construed as fetishizing, since they are not part of that pairing IRL?

I hope I'm making sense :P Just trying to get a better understanding of what the term encompasses.

Edited by Oolia
Clarification

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8 minutes ago, Oolia said:

I'm curious though, do you consider it fetishizing only if a straight person writes either? Technically, if we're talking about a fetish story written mainly for sexual arousal, should people only write their own sexual preferences? Otherwise, wouldn't it be construed as fetishizing, since they are not part of that pairing IRL?

I hope I'm making sense :P Just trying to get a better understanding of what the term encompasses.

I was going to ask the same thing :zippy: 

I'm not trying to play devil's advocate, and I am by no means disagreeing with what you're saying Adrian, but I am curious as to what aspects writing about M/M or F/F is seen as homophobic. I ask purely because I have seen fics where teenage girls are clearly fetishising gay/bi couples, and I 100% agree with what you're saying on the matter. But I do also write a lot of M/M in an RP I am currently a part of (it wasn’t intentional, our characters fell for each other without either of us anticipating it) but I don't think that's homophobic? It's just about 2 people who met and fell in love, and have a relationship the same as any other couple (in my mind). It incorporates the fetish (sneezing) but it isn't really fetishising the relationship, if that makes sense?

I'm not trying to patronise or undermine at all, I am trying to get a better understanding for my own knowledge ^_^ 

Edited to add: I am not straight, but I also don't identify as male, so I'm not sure if me writing about a couple outside of my own sexuality would be seen as homophobic, given it has fetish content? (sneezing only though, not glamourising the relationship for fetish purposes)

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Posted (edited)

41 minutes ago, PuddinPop said:

But I do also write a lot of M/M in an RP I am currently a part of (it wasn’t intentional, our characters fell for each other without either of us anticipating it) but I don't think that's homophobic? It's just about 2 people who met and fell in love, and have a relationship the same as any other couple (in my mind). It incorporates the fetish (sneezing) but it isn't really fetishising the relationship, if that makes sense?

You basically said what I was going too. I think it depends on the person and possibly the fandom. I know if a lot of anime fandoms male characters (regardless of sexuality) are shipped together and written about for the writers own fantasties. They can get bad enough where they'll outright deny the character is straight or trash a hetero pairing because it's not how they see it. This was prominent in the Katekyo Hitman Reborn fandom several years back. A very good friend of mine would draw one of the very popular characters (ie also the fandom bicycle) with a girl because she loved the pairing and would get m/m fangirls dissing her work soley because it was m/f. Like what the fuck? I pair a lot of guys together but I also don't trash others pairings just because I don't agree with them.

I think I went off tangent but the idea that people do write any characters whether gay/bi/pan/straight and fetishize them does happen sadly.

Which is why Im picky as hell when it comes to ficts :D But if the story and characters are good, frankly I don't care about the gender but that's me.

Also concering the homophobic girl and her comment, usually when people get called out on shit like that their natural reaction is a defensive nature and try to turn the situation on the person who called them out. I'm hella curious as to what she said to cause that reaction though.

Edited by Kaze wo Hiku

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Adrian isn't saying that writing or shipping m/m is inherently homophobic, he's saying that he sees people straight-up calling it "sinful" which is homophobic as fuck, and/or dehumanizing the people involved in the ship. If your writing treats the characters as actual people rather than just "omg they are both gay and that's sooooo hot lol!!!!!!" and nothing else, then that's fine.

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11 minutes ago, Junia said:

"omg they are both gay and that's sooooo hot lol!!!!!!" and nothing else, then that's fine.

This was like 80% of anime fandom ficts back on LiveJournal and one reason why I stay off fanfiction dot net (as most were cross posted).

 

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40 minutes ago, Junia said:

If your writing treats the characters as actual people rather than just "omg they are both gay and that's sooooo hot lol!!!!!!" and nothing else, then that's fine.

That's exactly what I got from that.  I really don't like when people make a group of people into a "piece of meat" so to speak.

I've seen that in different places (just on the net in general).  I personally haven't run across "I'm sinning", although I could definitely see some people saying that and acting like "rebels" or something - but the whole thing just seems to treat people as objects and the sinning thing DEFINITELY sends a bad message.

 

 

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There's also a difference between writing about two people in love and only ever writing M/M pairings. There's nothing wrong with straight people (or people other than men who like men) writing M/M, but it always looks fishy to me if that's the only kind of pairing they seem to ever be interested in.

I know that most media doesn't give us very many developed characters who are women, and there's a lot of focus on the emotions and stories of men, which is probably why there are so many more popular gay male pairings than female. Really, I get it. And I also know that LGBT people (especially non-straight women and nb people) cling to M/M pairings due to a yearning to see relationships that they can relate to.

But to non-MLM -- straight women especially -- it's worth taking a look at your shipping history and whether there might be some unsavory reasons behind it. You might not find any, and that's fine! But a little critical introspection never hurt.

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I hate the "sin/trash" thing, too, Adrian - this is coming from a bi woman in a same-sex relationship. *hug*

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3 hours ago, Junia said:

 

Adrian isn't saying that writing or shipping m/m is inherently homophobic, he's saying that he sees people straight-up calling it "sinful" which is homophobic as fuck, and/or dehumanizing the people involved in the ship.

 

Aah, I had read it as two different issues, the first being the "sinful" comment, which I agree is incredibly harmful to the cause, not to mention just plain dumb.

I assumed the M/M fetishizing was a separate issue, and I was curious to hear more about it from a different point of view than my own.

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21 minutes ago, Oolia said:

Aah, I had read it as two different issues, the first being the "sinful" comment, which I agree is incredibly harmful to the cause, not to mention just plain dumb.

I assumed the M/M fetishizing was a separate issue, and I was curious to hear more about it from a different point of view than my own.

That's how I read it too :) *tips hat to Junia*

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As @Junia said, I have absolutely 0 problem with people writing gay couples. It's so great to have this exposure. But far too often these fics, ESPECIALLY SMUT FICS, are written to satisfy the sexual "deviant" fantasies of straight women. Which is why it's obviously harder to distinguish on a fetish website because everything???? is written for sexual pleasure here????

I'm gonna give some examples of things I've seen around online fandom culture a lot ad hopefully that'll illustrate my point.

someone: makes an nsfw joke
me: no ew omg i'm so innocent stop
also me: reads gay smut

The problem with this is that it automatically implies that somehow gay sex is less "innocent" than straight sex. Regardless of what is meant by it, it's so obvious that equating reading gay smut to a loss of innocence means you still view gay relationships in sinful, deviant, and other.

"if my child ever comes to me and tells me they've been writing gay fanfiction, it'll be the proudest day of my life"

Okay there are a number of problems with this. First, there's the idea that writing gay fanfiction is something to be proud of because "i write about the gays when no-one else does" or "it's ~out of the norm~ therefore I'm being a good ally and i should be proud of my willingness to go against society in this way" and those attitudes are not good ones. If you want to be a good ally, donate to an LGBT charity, go to a march, call out homophobic jokes. Of course, if writing is all you feel you can contribute, then write. But don't write fetishised relationships.

As @Sen Beret says, take a look at your shipping history. As soon as two men interct on screen, do you immediately say "I ship it"? If so, why? They have no chemistry yet. Do you think gay relationships don't need chemistry? Do you think they don't need to be attracted to each other emotionally and physically like straight people do?

A problem arises especially when gay fic writers get angry at gay people for pointing out that they're being homophobic. Or when stories written by actual gay/bi/pan people aren't considered "hot enough" to be as popular as inaccurate m/m smut written by a straight woman.

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Posted (edited)

Does everything you stated above also apply to straight men who exclusively write/ship F/F?

As for the smut stuff, cant really respond since I rarely ever read it, not may thing but I have some nice stuff in this from knowing the author isn't straight ;)

Edited by Kaze wo Hiku

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Just now, Kaze wo Hiku said:

Does everything you stated above also apply to straight men who exclusively write/ship F/F?

I would think so!

Also, not eeeeeverything here is written for sexual pleasure, though I would agree that the majority of material here is for that purpose. A lot of writers do take time to develop their characters and plots, with sneezing serving as a secondary function. 

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The fact that I had to Google 'shipping' and then refine my search because all I got was a load of websites dealing with overseas transportation, is why I should not be on this thread. Goodnight all  :) 

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Wait a moment.  M/m stories written by ms are homophobic  not really surprised. but why?  Could anyone explain

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42 minutes ago, count tiszula said:

M/m stories written by ms are homophobic  not really surprised.

...wat?

I don't understand how you could even get to that conclusion from this thread. Did you like... read it?

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16 hours ago, Kaze wo Hiku said:

Does everything you stated above also apply to straight men who exclusively write/ship F/F?

As for the smut stuff, cant really respond since I rarely ever read it, not may thing but I have some nice stuff in this from knowing the author isn't straight ;)

I would also think so? As a WLW I personally get creeped out when cis men write F/F stuff, particularly because it tends to become "boobs boobs look at her boobs also BOOBS" very quickly ;) 

There have been really interesting discussions before about why straight women find M/M pairings so appealing -- the hypothesis behind the article I read was that straight women long for that softer, more romantic side in a man, so putting two men together kind of draws it out. If that makes sense haha. Basically it's being attracted to the vulnerability. 

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15 hours ago, Oolia said:

...wat?

I don't understand how you could even get to that conclusion from this thread. Did you like... read it?

Yeah... I am guessing not.  Because if the thread was read then one couldn't make snarky remarks against "PC".

12 hours ago, Winged said:

I would also think so? As a WLW I personally get creeped out when cis men write F/F stuff, particularly because it tends to become "boobs boobs look at her boobs also BOOBS" very quickly ;) 

There have been really interesting discussions before about why straight women find M/M pairings so appealing -- the hypothesis behind the article I read was that straight women long for that softer, more romantic side in a man, so putting two men together kind of draws it out. If that makes sense haha. Basically it's being attracted to the vulnerability. 

The former I feel like seems to be true in things that I have seen and just... not so much.

The thing that I hate with M//M fics written by *some* straight women is that that seem to 1) almost **over** "feminize" both characters- which... I'm not one who is that much into gender norms or whatever, and men can *absolutely* possess *many* "feminine" traits and that's ok.  It's just that the way that some stories are written, it reads as caricatured which is a bit annoying

2) Seeing the pairing dissolve into reading like they are still in high school when the characters are adults.  This **generally** (though not always) seems to happen when a teen (especially if they are straight) is writing the fic.  Some of the House/Wilson fics that I used to read (in other places) were just absolutely *painful* in that way.  Granted this still happens with m/f sometimes but...  

3) What Adrian seems to take issue to, the almost fetishizing that group of people- to where a person feels like they are uber-cool or an uber-rebel, or "sinful" because they are into m/m pairings, instead of just being more "This is what I like." in a more unexceptional way (as people tend to do with m/f pairings).  Or people automatically shipping m/m when the only reason to ship *seems* to be "Oooo... here are two guys".  Although, I do feel like this happens with many pairings.  And honest to god- it does drive me a little goofy that some people cannot seem to let a male have a deep relationship with another person (male or female) without having to "ship" them- because *obviously* males are incapable of just being friends. :lol:  I honestly don't have a problem with any combo of ship, and I've very much enjoyed a variety of pairings if the story is well written, but those are some of my (admittedly possibly weird, and admittedly from a hetro p.o.v.).

 

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12 minutes ago, tma said:

And honest to god- it does drive me a little goofy that some people cannot seem to let a male have a deep relationship with another person (male or female) without having to "ship" them- because *obviously* males are incapable of just being friends. :lol:  

 

:thankyou:

I really wanted one that said "This" but couldn't find it. But yes I agree with this a thousand percent. If the story and characters are good I don't care about gender or if they end up together. Just write a good story.

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1 hour ago, Kaze wo Hiku said:

:thankyou:

I really wanted one that said "This" but couldn't find it. But yes I agree with this a thousand percent. If the story and characters are good I don't care about gender or if they end up together. Just write a good story.

We mostly tend to do this because there aren't very many canon gay couples, uh, anywhere! :laugh: Because god forbid someone in the audience perceives them as too gay. These kinds of relationships in the media usually end up "balanced out" with a ton of comments about their "bromance" or whatever.

If two characters seem to have a lot of chemistry, no matter what gender they are, people are usually going to write fanfiction of them as a romantic couple. It just usually seems to happen to male characters because... again... writers often give them the most attention and development.

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11 hours ago, Sen Beret said:

We mostly tend to do this because there aren't very many canon gay couples, uh, anywhere! :laugh: Because god forbid someone in the audience perceives them as too gay. These kinds of relationships in the media usually end up "balanced out" with a ton of comments about their "bromance" or whatever.

If two characters seem to have a lot of chemistry, no matter what gender they are, people are usually going to write fanfiction of them as a romantic couple. It just usually seems to happen to male characters because... again... writers often give them the most attention and development.

^ 100% agreed. I'm guilty of looking at two women in a show that even have mild chemistry and going THEY SHOULD DATE. And I've been called out on it before, which usually comes from the "why does everything have to be gay" angle. Well, why does everything have to be straight??

I tend to get more annoyed with male-female friendships that people immediately ship with rabid fervor (coughThe100cough), because it perpetuates heteronormativity (What if the girl isn't interested in men? What if the guy is asexual?), and there's already so much of it in the media that it's not like people are starved for material.

I'm writing this on mobile and have had a fever on and off for the last two days so apologies if I'm getting tangential here. I think this is a really important discussion though and I appreciate Adrian for bringing it up.  

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The issue with this, I think, is that teen girls especially just want to fit in. M/M (and now, growingly F/F) are "in trend" which is wrong in itself, but that's a whole other issue. 

They want to fit in, they want to seem cool, they want to be part of what's big on the internet right now, which is gay couples. And the fact that gay couples themselves say "trash" and that they're sinning (I've seen this on various social media platforms but never here) so people who are writing M/M or F/F get swept into that whole concept. 

It's definitely an ingrained homophobic thing but I don't think they're being purposely homophobic - I think it's another thing about our society as a whole that we need to change. 

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I'd like to clarify that I certainly don't think they're being purposely homophobic either. The majority of people who fit this narrative will be the first to say "no but i support gay rights!" which is great and all but I think it's important for them to understand that supporting gay rights is more than just not killing us in the streets. It's also not actively contributing to the idea that we're sinful or out of the norm which is a lot harder due to internalised homophobia and the nature of oppression.

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11 hours ago, Winged said:

I tend to get more annoyed with male-female friendships that people immediately ship with rabid fervor (coughThe100cough), because it perpetuates heteronormativity (What if the girl isn't interested in men? What if the guy is asexual?), and there's already so much of it in the media that it's not like people are starved for material.

If I ever saw anything that had a canon asexual character in it I'd probably fall over dead. Right now the closet I've seen is Yakumo from Rakugo since the fandom generally accepts he is. 

I agree with @LastHope with the wanting to look cool or being the "oh it's so gay I love it" routine which just makes me nauseous. 

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