AdrianMarx

Shipping and Homophobia

31 posts in this topic

@Kaze wo Hiku the podcasts Ars Paradoxica and The Bright Sessions both have canon asexual characters! I would definitely recommend them. 

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This is a very thought provoking thread. I read the entire thing, and as someone who does enjoy reading and writing M/M pairings, I took a good long look at my preferences in general. To be perfectly honest I'm not entirely sure if I fetishize the M/M pairing or not. The thing is that I was exposed to M/M and F/F pairings from a rather young age and it was through fics in this community that I was first exposed to it, so it's all kind of tied up with the sneeze fetish. When I first started reading these pairings(and back then I read nearly everything because there was a lot less sneeze fetish material in general), they admittedly made me uncomfortable at first, especially if it was 18+ material. Then as I got older and matured some more, I actually started to really like the M/M pairings, probably more so than M/F. I never really developed a strong liking for F/F pairings, but I did become more comfortable with them over time.

As an adult, I'd say that I probably still have a stronger preference for M/M pairings over M/F, and little interest in F/F pairings. However, as far as M/M and M/F pairings go, it's important for me that the characters go well together. So if I think the characters go well together, it really doesn't matter so much to me if it's two men or a man and a woman, and that's why I still ship M/F pairings even though I really like M/M.

In my favorite show, there's a popular M/M pairing that I do not personally ship, and honestly it gets on my nerves a bit when I see other people shipping those characters together just because I don't think they fit well together. On the show, those two characters have more of a student/mentor type relationship and I just don't see them ever being romantically involved. Towards the end of the show, they did seem to grow closer, but it still only seemed like platonic friendship to me, and honestly they have nothing in common outside of work so I don't even get how a relationship would work between them. I think the people that ship them together are probably just doing it for the sole sake of seeing an M/M pairing when there aren't any in the fandom that would be more viable. On the other side of this, the only M/M pairing I do ship in that particular show is between the main character and a character that was only ever in 1 episode that had about five minutes of screen time. Needless to say, this is not a popular ship, but I felt those two characters had more chemistry together in those five minutes of screen time than the more popular M/M ship by far.

As a sort of side note tangent, I'd like to mention that while I don't ever really seek out F/F pairings in fanfiction, I certainly don't have a problem with seeing them in canon, and I'm kind of indifferent to it most of the time, but can certainly recognize if the characters go well together.

In thinking about my preferences, I think that I just really prefer men, and I prefer to have at least one man in relationships that I read/write about. When I think about why I like to see M/M relationships so much, even when the material isn't sexual at all, I think it might have something to do with my own gender issues which I've had trouble even coming up with a specific term for. Basically I was assigned female at birth and I have no problem with having a female body or being referred to with female pronouns, though I do dislike being called a lady. I can't stand wearing women's clothing though unless I can find stuff that's not overly feminine(the only exception to this is if I can find something that makes me look like a pagan priestess), and generally prefer to stick to unisex or men's clothing when I can. I also often have strong desires to be a man, but I'd never consider transitioning because I guess what I really want is to be able to shapeshift back and forth between male and female whenever I want. Maybe this makes me genderfluid, but I've never really explored it beyond wearing men's clothing. I've never tried binders or anything like that. Anyway, I guess part of the reason why I feel drawn to M/M relationships is because I have a strong desire to be in one myself, but unfortunately that's never going to be possible unless I actually did want to transition to male.

So yeah, I think maybe I did possibly fetishize M/M relationships when I was younger when I was less self-aware, but I don't think I really do now, or if I do, then I don't think I do it nearly as much as others I've seen. I'd certainly be open to hearing other's opinions on whether they think my interest in M/M relationships leans towards fetishism or not.

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What if the use of the word "sinful" just alludes to the going against canon (i.e. pairing a character who's obv straight in the original material with a same sex character)? Is that still homophobic?

I mean, honestly, it would probably be okay by everyone to call it "sinful" if someone wrote a gay character as a straight one in a fanfic (although in that case there would be the double sin of going against canon AND possible homophobia). 

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I've never heard someone use the word "sinful" to refer to changing canon in any way. I think that in most fandom circles (at least the ones I've seen), there's a general consensus that the source material doesn't have to be law, and it's fun/good/cool to expand on it to create a narrative that you think might be fun and/or relatable. 

And yeah, it would probably be okay to call it sinful if someone wrote a canonically gay character as straight. It's totally different because not only are there so few LGBT characters in the media (meaning it would be shitty to take that away from us), but there isn't a history of straight people being abused and killed because their straight behavior was a "sin".

Edited by Sen Beret
noticed a missing quotation and it was driving me crazy

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This is an amazing topic and I had to hold myself back from quoting every single thing I agree with.

Just came here to point out that there's also a difference between expressing a variety of different relationships and ways in which love manifests itself, and fetishizing a certain pairing, or a certain kind of pairing (like M/M), BUT THAT BEING SAID, either way you should *NOT* be doing those things to be on trend, or to give yourself a pat on the back for "writing about the gays when no-one else does" as Adrian said.

I think this has been said a lot in this trend, but I think motive behind the whole deal is the most important thing here. If your M/M pairing fic is written because you feel like it's YOUR job, as a straight person, "to take down heteronormativity so you can garner the attention and praise of the ever-grateful gay community," there's a huge problem there.

It's the difference between self-serving because you like the pairing and you recognize each as people and you think they would make a good match and you want to write about it, and self-serving because "M/M is soooo hot" or because "I'm being a good ally and deserve a pat on the back, go me!!" (and BOTH of the latter options are problematic here, not just the first one).

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18 hours ago, Zwee said:

This is an amazing topic and I had to hold myself back from quoting every single thing I agree with.

Just came here to point out that there's also a difference between expressing a variety of different relationships and ways in which love manifests itself, and fetishizing a certain pairing, or a certain kind of pairing (like M/M), BUT THAT BEING SAID, either way you should *NOT* be doing those things to be on trend, or to give yourself a pat on the back for "writing about the gays when no-one else does" as Adrian said.

I think this has been said a lot in this trend, but I think motive behind the whole deal is the most important thing here. If your M/M pairing fic is written because you feel like it's YOUR job, as a straight person, "to take down heteronormativity so you can garner the attention and praise of the ever-grateful gay community," there's a huge problem there.

It's the difference between self-serving because you like the pairing and you recognize each as people and you think they would make a good match and you want to write about it, and self-serving because "M/M is soooo hot" or because "I'm being a good ally and deserve a pat on the back, go me!!" (and BOTH of the latter options are problematic here, not just the first one).

:yes:

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