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Heathcliff

The Last Jedi- my thoughts

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Heathcliff
Posted (edited)

WARNING: SPOILERS!!!

THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR THE ENTIRE LAST JEDI MOVIE. I RECOMMEND YOU SEE THE MOVIE FIRST BEFORE READING THIS POST.

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I missed Star Wars: The Last Jedi when it first came out- I finally saw it now it's out on Blu-Ray. I watched it in pieces during the evenings last week, and watched the whole thing through again yesterday.

I admit, because of some of the crazy fan backlash over this movie, I wanted to like it... and, I did. I think it's a good movie. It's not the best movie ever- I think Force Awakens is probably better, and it certainly doesn't knock Empire Strikes Back off my personal top spot. But it's good- visually I think it's gorgeous.

Because this movie seems so divisive among fans, I just wanted to ask what people here thought of it- and give my own personal response to some criticisms of the film.

We don't learn anything about Snoke.

I was surprised by this- but I don't have a problem with it. I saw a great quote online from someone who worked on the movie (I forget who). It pointed out- we know as much about Snoke as we need to. In Return of the Jedi, we didn't know the Emperor's backstory either, but it worked.

The guy also pointed out that if Snoke came out with one of the fan theories about who he was, it wouldn't mean anything to the characters in the film. If Snoke had said "By the way, I'm Darth Plagueis", Rey would just have said "Who's that?"

The dialogue is crap.

It's hardly Shakespeare, but it's no worse than any of the other Star Wars films. And it's miles ahead of some of the godawful dialogue in Episodes 1, 2 and 3.

The sub-plots don't really go anywhere.

Mmm, yeah, I sort of agree. As a David Lynch fan I was thrilled to see Laura Dern in this, and felt she was underused (nice purple hair though).

And the big one... the portrayal of Luke Skywalker is utterly wrong.

Now... I was taken aback by this at first. But it has grown on me, a lot.

Firstly- I'm not so wedded to Star Wars that I can't have the characters change significantly. It's been many years since Return of the Jedi, many things have happened- people would change.

I read a wonderful defence of this plot on the internet- which said that the movie is all about the difference between Luke Skywalker the legend, and Luke Skywalker the man. The legend is an  unbeatable, heroic Jedi. The reality is a flawed man.

Luke knows Obi-Wan unwittingly created Darth Vader- and he himself has unwittingly created Kylo Ren. I don't think it's surprising he would then think "I'm doing more harm than good" and shut himself away.

Also, as a personal point, I've been going out less in the last few months and suffering more from anxiety. It seems entirely plausable to me that someone would want to shut themself away like that, even Luke Skywalker. And it makes the ending all the more powerful.

The ending is bad.

I admit, I'm a bit disappointed that we didn't get a proper lightsaber duel at the end. However, I think in the context of the movie, the ending really works. When Luke faces Kylo, he willingly plays the part of Luke Skywalker the Legend again. He appears to be invincible- he humiliates Kylo Ren in front of his entire army, for daring to draw his sword against him. He helps the resistance escape without spilling a drop of blood- surely, the act of a true Jedi.

So...

I didn't expect to feel as passionate about this as I do! Tell me what you think.

Please, keep the conversation civil. I promise I will.

 

 

Edited by Heathcliff

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Sneeze999

It's good, in terms of an actual movie, but it is a BAD Star Wars movie. Now, while there are certain things about this that I did like, like the portrayal of Luke (Unlike others I didn't have a problem with it, it's been 30 years since Endor, people change.) I liked the more focused and evil Kylo and, while he was actually on-screen, Snoke was a total bad-ass character! I even liked the reveal of Rey's parents being nobodies as it didn't lump the character with unneccesary expectations.

BUT, there was too much wrong with this film for me, as a Star Wars fan, to give it a pass. The death of Snoke felt like a 2 fingers to the audience (I legit almost got up and left the cinema at that point) especially since the identity of Snoke had been a HUGE talking point among fans for the 2 years that people waited for this movie, it made me feel like time wasted. The lack of Lightsaber vs Lightsaber combat was annoying, ths was a Star Wars SAGA film, the lightsaber battles are kind of a big part of these films.Virtually EVERY sub-plot was pointless and had no need to be there, the whole thing with the resistance fleet running from the First Order and being just outside of their lethal range felt way too much like Battlestar Galactica, it felt wrong. The love story between Rose and Finn was EXTEREMLY cringy and forced. And, as nice as it was to see Luke go out on his own terms, I still think it was the wrong decision to kill him off. I also didn't like the fact that Rey seems to be a Mary-Sue character, someone without flaws who is portayed as perfect, heroes these days should be flawed as that is somehting everyone can relate to, it just seems baffeling to me to make her a character without flaws...

So...yeah, that's my 2 cents on the film, it was good visually and the acting was pretty good by the majority of the cast (Mark Hamil gave an oscar-worthy performance!) but there were so many pointless sub-plots and anti-climactic moments in this film that, for me, it ranks as one of my least-liked Star Wars films, I would even say I enjoy Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith more than I do this movie, but that's just me :)

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Heathcliff
1 hour ago, Sneeze999 said:

The death of Snoke felt like a 2 fingers to the audience (I legit almost got up and left the cinema at that point) especially since the identity of Snoke had been a HUGE talking point among fans for the 2 years that people waited for this movie, it made me feel like time wasted

Wow, really? The filmmakers can't be responsible for whatever time fans have spent over talking about things.

 

1 hour ago, Sneeze999 said:

The lack of Lightsaber vs Lightsaber combat was annoying,

Yeah, I totally agree. We should have had a proper duel, I was disappointed.

 

1 hour ago, Sneeze999 said:

I also didn't like the fact that Rey seems to be a Mary-Sue character, someone without flaws who is portayed as perfect,

The calling-card of the geek is to say "Mary Sue" or something similar at all times. But I agree that Rey was given some of the worst writing in this movie. However, not so much different to how flawless Luke and Anakin were in previous episodes.

 

1 hour ago, Sneeze999 said:

I would even say I enjoy Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith more than I do this movie, but that's just me :)

Everyone is intitled to their opinion- I like Revenge of the Sith, but...

...watch a double bill of Last Jedi and Attack of the Clones. If you still think the latter is better then I will jump into the canal. :D

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Heathcliff

I said I'll be civil- that was a typo. I'll be Heathclff. :)

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Sneeze999
Posted (edited)
37 minutes ago, Heathcliff said:

Wow, really? The filmmakers can't be responsible for whatever time fans have spent over talking about things.

Yeah, but there were 2 years in which the film-makers had time to analyze people's reactions to certain characters and, considering what people got as opposed to what was theorized, it kinda felt like a slap in the face. To me Star Wars has always been, like, people will theorize about stuff in the films, who will this turn out to be? What will this character do? ect and, for the most part, Star Wars usually delivers by either giving the fans what they expected or, when they don't, giving them something satisfying, the death of Snoke was NOT satisfying and felt like a kop-out to me, just my opinion :)

37 minutes ago, Heathcliff said:

The calling-card of the geek is to say "Mary Sue" or something similar at all times. But I agree that Rey was given some of the worst writing in this movie. However, not so much different to how flawless Luke and Anakin were in previous episodes.

Wouldn't really say Luke or Anakin were flawless characters though, Anakin was prideful and arrogant while Luke also showed some of those qualities ie going off to face Vader despite being warned not to do so by Yoda. Whereas Rey has had everything come very easily to her, she hasn't failed and had to get back up like both Luke and Anakin had to do and she also hasn't struggled with learning the force like those 2 had to do either.

37 minutes ago, Heathcliff said:

...watch a double bill of Last Jedi and Attack of the Clones. If you still think the latter is better then I will jump into the canal. :D

I watched the prequels as soon as I got back from watching Last Jedi as I wanted to be sure of what I was feeling and, I found myself enjoying AOTC more than I did LJ lol I do admit to alot of the failings of the prequals, but in terms of story the last 2 prequels are better than LJ, where they failed was in the execution....except for Revenge of the Sith, as I consider that my second favourite Star Wars movie! lol :)

Edited by Sneeze999

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Light
2 hours ago, Sneeze999 said:

It's good, in terms of an actual movie,

 

Sorry, i can't even give it that much. 

So first this is just my opinion and i am not criticizing yours just the movie.

The plot was full of holes, and thin. The entire sub-plot of the casino was pointless, totally forced and could have been avoided with one conversation between the useless stand in leader and anyone of a number of characters.  Over half the movie was the slowest most boring space chase in movie history.  

Jokes were also forced and just bad while every plot point from the previous movie was rendered completely irrelevant.

The overall movie seemed to have been made by people who had not even seen the last movie, let alone a star wars movie. Either that or the new director has it out for JJ Abrams and wanted to completely jack up his movie. 

All this is not even counting the utter destruction of almost all star wars history, characters, and lore. 

It was the worst star wars movie i have ever seen and having grown up with the movies, it was truly crushing to watch.

Ep 1-3 had there share of issues but i would take them over these new ones any day. They respected the lore and if you hare making a movie in such a large famous franchise, you have to respect the lore, you must!   

I could rant for pages so i'll stop but this was just painful and i'm still not over it. 

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Sneeze999
9 minutes ago, Light said:

 every plot point from the previous movie was rendered completely irrelevant.

I don't think they were rendered irrelevant, just REALLY badly written, which is what happens when you finish writing the script for 8 before 7 has even hit theaters, as happened with Last Jedi. Rian Johnson was so determined to be bold and make astonishing changes that he failed to take notice of the fans and what THEY wanted. He was so determined to get his vision of Star Wars out there that he made it seem that he just didn't care what the fans wanted, wether that was true or not is up for debate. It would have been easy for him to check out some of the reaction to Force Awakens, look at some of the fan theories, then adjust his script accordingly, I mean, he had 2 years to work with! lol :)

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Light
20 minutes ago, Sneeze999 said:

I don't think they were rendered irrelevant, just REALLY badly written, which is what happens when you finish writing the script for 8 before 7 has even hit theaters, as happened with Last Jedi. Rian Johnson was so determined to be bold and make astonishing changes that he failed to take notice of the fans and what THEY wanted. He was so determined to get his vision of Star Wars out there that he made it seem that he just didn't care what the fans wanted, wether that was true or not is up for debate. It would have been easy for him to check out some of the reaction to Force Awakens, look at some of the fan theories, then adjust his script accordingly, I mean, he had 2 years to work with! lol :)

It just seemed they threw them out the window to me. All the open plot points JJ set up Johnson just threw out. 

Who are Rye parents? Doesn't matter. Why is she powerful? Just because. Who is Snok, where did he come from? Doesn't matter, he is dead. Why is the light saber important? Its not, lets just throw it over Luke's shoulder and later destroy it. Why did Luke leave a map for them to follow to him? Who knows because now he does not want to be found.  

That scene of Luke throwing the light saber over his shoulder like trash was a perfect illustration of what Rian Johnson did to the fans hopes and dreams.

Hell, when your lead actor states he "fundamentally disagrees with every thing about his character", that should have told Johnson something. Mark Hammel has sense revised that statement but i think its because Disney told him to quit bashing the movie, or else.  

Again, just my thoughts but this movie still stings to think about.  

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Blah!?

I have to say I was a bit worried when I saw this thread pop up, but I feel at ease now that I've read it. I went and saw the movie in theaters as early as I possibly could, and at that point my only criteria was basically "Don't be a rehash of Empire." Once it was over, I was surprised by how much I liked it. It's not my favorite Star Wars movie, but it's probably my favorite of the Disney films so far. I don't dislike The Force Awakens, but I think I do like it the least of the three because it's just too much of a retread of A New Hope for me. I think "lazy" is too harsh a word, but it did feel like "lazy" fanservice to me in a way, basically just listing off things that they know Star Wars fans will want to see without doing anything new. After that, Rogue One goes in the middle. I still felt like Rogue One was still mostly just fanservice, but as opposed to The Force Awakens, it wasn't just a remake of any of the previous movies. It didn't really add anything new to the Star Wars universe, and a lot of it was just cool stuff that Star Wars fans would freak out over, but they at least had enough creativity to have its own story. Plus the way it ties into A New Hope was just beautiful to see. That could have been done really poorly, but I loved it.

As for The Last Jedi, I don't think it's perfect, but my list of complaints is pretty short and none of them are catastrophic. I don't dislike Rose as a character, and I really only have an issue with the "saving what we love," line. I don't even disagree with what I think she meant to say, but the line itself was just so awkward that it felt somewhat self-defeating.

I didn't really have a problem with Canto Bight either. I disagree with the criticism that that side plot was pointless. Just because it didn't work out the way the heroes intended doesn't mean it was pointless. In a decade of cinema where every villain's plan is buried under about 17 levels of Ocean's 11 logic, it was so nice to see that they just screwed up. Finn and Rose's plan wasn't secretly a plot by the villains all along, DJ wasn't a First Order mole from the beginning, and so on. They simply failed at executing their plan, and DJ betrayed them in the heat of the moment when a better deal presented itself. It does feel kind of weird to say this, but I find that so refreshing.

I think Heath covered most of the other things I've had on my mind, but I just have to say I'm so glad that the fans aren't the ones actually writing these movies. Every now and then you see a cool fan theory, but for every good one there are a thousand too terrible to mention. The internet had so many "ideas" for the Deadpool movie, and just think of how terrible that would have been if even a handful of those thoughts had been implemented. Besides, do you really want to see a movie where everything goes exactly as you imagined it? An average movie gives the audience what they want. Good and great movies do that and more. You're totally free to disagree with me on whether The Last Jedi accomplished that or not, but it definitely wasn't just fanservice.

Lastly the number of people who think the kid in the closing shot has to now become a main character who gets his own movie or TV show or something is hilarious to me.

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Sneeze999
14 minutes ago, Blah!? said:

I have to say I was a bit worried when I saw this thread pop up, but I feel at ease now that I've read it. I went and saw the movie in theaters as early as I possibly could, and at that point my only criteria was basically "Don't be a rehash of Empire." Once it was over, I was surprised by how much I liked it. It's not my favorite Star Wars movie, but it's probably my favorite of the Disney films so far. I don't dislike The Force Awakens, but I think I do like it the least of the three because it's just too much of a retread of A New Hope for me. I think "lazy" is too harsh a word, but it did feel like "lazy" fanservice to me in a way, basically just listing off things that they know Star Wars fans will want to see without doing anything new. After that, Rogue One goes in the middle. I still felt like Rogue One was still mostly just fanservice, but as opposed to The Force Awakens, it wasn't just a remake of any of the previous movies. It didn't really add anything new to the Star Wars universe, and a lot of it was just cool stuff that Star Wars fans would freak out over, but they at least had enough creativity to have its own story. Plus the way it ties into A New Hope was just beautiful to see. That could have been done really poorly, but I loved it.

As for The Last Jedi, I don't think it's perfect, but my list of complaints is pretty short and none of them are catastrophic. I don't dislike Rose as a character, and I really only have an issue with the "saving what we love," line. I don't even disagree with what I think she meant to say, but the line itself was just so awkward that it felt somewhat self-defeating.

I didn't really have a problem with Canto Bight either. I disagree with the criticism that that side plot was pointless. Just because it didn't work out the way the heroes intended doesn't mean it was pointless. In a decade of cinema where every villain's plan is buried under about 17 levels of Ocean's 11 logic, it was so nice to see that they just screwed up. Finn and Rose's plan wasn't secretly a plot by the villains all along, DJ wasn't a First Order mole from the beginning, and so on. They simply failed at executing their plan, and DJ betrayed them in the heat of the moment when a better deal presented itself. It does feel kind of weird to say this, but I find that so refreshing.

I think Heath covered most of the other things I've had on my mind, but I just have to say I'm so glad that the fans aren't the ones actually writing these movies. Every now and then you see a cool fan theory, but for every good one there are a thousand too terrible to mention. The internet had so many "ideas" for the Deadpool movie, and just think of how terrible that would have been if even a handful of those thoughts had been implemented. Besides, do you really want to see a movie where everything goes exactly as you imagined it? An average movie gives the audience what they want. Good and great movies do that and more. You're totally free to disagree with me on whether The Last Jedi accomplished that or not, but it definitely wasn't just fanservice.

Lastly the number of people who think the kid in the closing shot has to now become a main character who gets his own movie or TV show or something is hilarious to me.

Hey, it's cool that you like the movie! I have always said that it is better to convince someone to like a movie they hate than to convince them to hate a movie they like :)

I will say about fanservice though, when it comes to Star Wars, fan-service is a MUST! Why? Because the "hardcore" group of Star Wars fans is big enough to sustain this franchise just by themselves. Trust me, the hardcore group is MASSIVE and could easily sustain the Star Wars franchise, so giving the fans some things that they want to see, or better yet, things more imaginative than the fans came up with, is a much better way to do things than just to blank the fans and write things a certain way, especially with Star Wars. The problem with Last Jedi, for many at least, is that the answers to the questions posed in Force Awakens were viewed as very bland, basic and unimaginative, which is the biggest problem.

But hey, this is just my opinion and it is really cool to actually see some constructive conversation about this movie without it devolving into back and forth hate like you see everywhere else! lol :)

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